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 Metagame rules

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Squire
Squire
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Join date : 2020-03-30

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PostSubject: Metagame rules   Metagame rules I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 07, 2020 6:16 pm

So if there was, theoretically, some sort of multiplayer tournament going on, what kind of ruleset should be applied? What type of map should be played, considering some races rely on map features, e.g. wood elves? Should shops, lairs, temples etc be allowed? Should there be a hero, or just no hero mode? And if there's a hero, is there a level cap and should the hero be allowed to use items?

Playing no hero mode would be fine with me, it's just that you start the game with a general unit and two builders (if you play without army setup points), and some general units are simply better/worse than others. Maybe a 10 minute initial ceasefire can solve problems of early rushing? The "strong starting towers" option is also great in my opinion.

If we are playing with heroes... considering the game as of right now, a beta, and considering all the little imbalances between the races and classes, I'd say a level cap of 15-20ish is justified. Doesn't make you overpowered, doesn't make you obsolete either.

Honestly, I haven't fully explored all the items of the game yet, but from what I've seen so far items can make even a frail supporter/mage hero tougher, which is why I'd personally say: no items for nobody. If you play an archmage/alchemist and you create your own items during the game, I'd say that's fair game since it's kind of part of your skill set.
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Gatts
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Gatts

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Join date : 2016-05-19
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PostSubject: Re: Metagame rules   Metagame rules I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 07, 2020 8:14 pm

Items: mundane / mediocre items should be included (especially as most items, even sets were tuned down and do not give huge upper hand)

But if there are OP items (I have not found such yet, especially due the tiny trick: whenever I think "WOW, this item is GOOD!" it turns out to be HEAVILY CURSED and I have to frantically search for a mausoleum to get it uncursed Smile ), then such items shall be excluded.

I remember in HOMM 3 WoG, there were sets, that really made you irrationally OP (I remember many such sets, but most funny was the one, that risen Liches from dead instead skellies), so any such sets were excluded from tournaments.

Also, there are spells like Disjunction - that renders items useless, and then such spell would not have any value (so when we want keep Create Item type spells, we should also keep the value other items related spells)

Heroes make a difference, but usually the fun-part difference. To WBC / TP are heroes quite an important part. Also define the play style (same faction/race is played differently with warrior, against support, against mage...). Simply keep it fair, by setting equal level for everybody, and not extremely high, so the chance of abusing some synergies won't be extreme.

Of course the game is playable without heroes, but honestly, who is playing TP / WBC without heroes? Just with mere generals. It would take away significant portion of the overall experience, IMO.

Still, a multiplayer is a thrill and a click-fest, quick moves around the screen, not much different from professional tournaments of Star-Craft, and formidable veteran players of WBC can easily top even cheating Demigod AI, hence no matter what restrictions for tournament are put in place, skill will still matter. Just the list of possible strategies will be narrow.

So even the least important spells like DIV/Scry might turn out to be super effective, and slowly the rules could turn out to be endless rat-hole, by searching for ways hot to limit basically any and each special skill/spell/RB.

I say, keep it liberal, even with the risk of some surprising loses/wins where the audience could object "that was unfair", but common, exploiting such games/rules is part of the play, isn't it?
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JPUlisses
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JPUlisses

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Age : 30
Location : Portugal

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PostSubject: Re: Metagame rules   Metagame rules I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 07, 2020 11:50 pm

In my opinion:
Temporary heroes level 20
Army points +1
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Joe the Bartender
Keeper of Balance
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Joe the Bartender

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Join date : 2014-08-20
Location : The Candlekeep Inn

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PostSubject: Re: Metagame rules   Metagame rules I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 08, 2020 1:46 am

There isn't any particular set of guidelines at the moment. Mulletman had an old multiplayer ban list which is still partially relevant. If I developed a multiplayer guide for a tournament, I would go with the following:

Map
No maps which give advantages or disadvantages to specific sides, whether through the use of terrain or the placement of mines or utilities. Symmetrical is best. Also, no maps which don't have a set of level 3 starting mines and no maps which funnel base defence down to a single point. Given this, everything is banned except:
  • Agrikillture
  • Castle Wars (maybe. It's one of Siopear's maps and isn't in the base game)
  • Cleave Canyon
  • Crashing the Festival (maybe)
  • Devil's Habitat (it's one of Zuzu's maps and isn't in the base game)
  • Dragon Caves
  • Dragon Island
  • Emerald Isle (maybe)
  • Gornak's Garden (maybe)
  • Icy Hills
  • Inside Out
  • Into the Void
  • Lightning River
  • Lost City of Zhur
  • Ravine of the Claws
  • Shady Vale
  • Tides of Pain
  • Volcanoes
  • Wealthy Forest


Map Settings
Everything off unless specified:
  • Standard Victory
  • Revealed Map + Fog of War. This gives new players knowledge of the map's layout so more experienced players don't get an unfair advantage.
  • No Walls. Walls are cheap and highly abusable. They can physically change the flow of a map in an unintended fashion and they have a decent amount of View despite being so cheap.
  • Keep Level 5
  • Resignation Kills Side
  • Hero Resurrection. If your hero dies, this option means that you don't necessarily lose the game. If this is off, when your hero dies, you have basically lost the game (which is not good for comebacks).
  • No special retinue. The reason is that some units perform considerably better when they're on specific sides. The Halcyon Phoenix is a good example.
  • No items. The reason why is because the game can't account for the difference in the power of items yet. Handicapping helps to fix item balancing, but it doesn't work because a hero's value comes back due to regeneration whilst the extra army setup points do not come back once the units themselves die.
  • Quests off. By default this option is on, but quests present an enormous amount of imbalance that can't be accounted for.
  • Shops off. This option doesn't exist yet, but shops give random bonuses which can't be accounted for, just like quests. In addition, heroes will more crowns will gain more of a benefit than those with less and the maximum number of crowns a hero can bring into battle can't be set at the moment.
  • Army setup points: 15


Races and Factions
I don't know very much here. If I applied any rules, I would consider:
  • Dark Elves banned. I'm not sure if I'd consider banning the entire race, but they are extraordinarily difficult to beat.
  • Empire: Thalassian Empire banned. Self-sufficiency research allows them to have units which don't take up the army limit. This is like the old mercenary researches which could exceed the unit cap.
  • Swarm: The Fertilum Sect banned. Even with the nerfs, the extreme amount of free units mixed with good Swarm upgrades makes for a near-unbeatable ball of death.


Heroes
I'm relying a bit on Mulletman's old list here. Certain classes need to be banned and certain skills or perks also need to be banned. Basically, anything which is abusive to the point of breaking game balance needs to be banned. The following is a combination of Mulletman's old list and my thoughts:
  • Hero level 20

Classes
  • Blightlord class banned
  • Defiler class banned
  • Ranger class banned
  • Venomancer class banned

Skills
  • Contamination skill banned
  • Double Dealer skill banned (maybe. The reason why is because it's too strong by default and in addition, it combos with all enemy income skills and research, making it by far the most powerful income skill in the game. The reason I say maybe is because without this, the Thief doesn't have all that much left)
  • Salvaging skill banned
  • Tactician skill banned
  • Taming skill banned

Perks
  • Archanon Order of the Red Maw perk banned
  • Daemon Soul Harvesting perk banned
  • Daemon Soul Power perk banned
  • Deathknight Lord of the Dead perk banned (maybe)
  • Hadesha, World of Nightmares Unthinkable Torment perk banned
  • High Druid Nature's Plight perk banned
  • Licheguard of Zhur Thirst for Immortality perk banned (maybe. Need to do more testing on this one)
  • Longbowmen of Elenia Bow Commander perk banned
  • Pyromancer Primal Terror perk banned (it has a busted combo with the scarab research)
  • Swarm Carcass Impregnation perk banned
  • The Kagh'ri Sect Decaying Presence perk banned
  • The League of Gildine Merchants Taxman perk banned
  • Warrior Master of Arms perk banned

Spells
  • Divine Peace banned
  • Homeguard banned in team games (maybe)
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D.Lorian
Knight
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D.Lorian

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Join date : 2020-07-01

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PostSubject: Re: Metagame rules   Metagame rules I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2020 8:42 am

Would you ban item creation on alchemist as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Metagame rules   Metagame rules I_icon_minitime

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