Spellcasters & Magic

Spellcasters were a tricky bunch in vanilla WBC3, some spells were ridiculously sad and others were game-changing when spammed. Spellcasters were usually better than Warriors up until the higher levels where Minotaurs just entered your based, razed it and got away without saying 'hi'.

Now I believe the something just as bad happens: Spellcasters are a bit silly. I have only 5 Heroes in high-levels but I struggle a lot when fighting huge battles with spellcasters while Warrior-type are usually challenging but not auto-lose 'if X happens' - sometimes if Y happens, the whole fight is a breeze. Summoners are bad (oh, Kharma), Pyromancers got what they deserved (farewell, Krun, Minotaur Master of the Flame) and Cryomancy is just plain bad as it has always been.

With that said, after playing some other temporary Spellcasters, I think I got one - if not 'the' - reason for that: Too much spent on Spells; while your Warrior friend is rocking a 40+ on one or two Stats and probably some skills, you're struggling to reach a good Intelligence and Ritual to cast your spells, not to mention your Lord skill - see I understand sacrifices for a goal, but I see this as too much...
Some low-level spells are better than their higher counterparts, so I don't believe the decision was made only for power reasons. My main complaint is that you have to spend skill points on useless spells (like Day/Night spells), so I propose a different pathing on the spells (I can even help with that, if needed), while keeping the extra skill points used, this way you won't throw 2 levels away just to reach that one spell you desire.
Also another thing I thought, some Spheres could give extra benefits when reaching a new level on a Closure spell, like Crystal/minute to Illusionism, +1 Speed for troops in Pyromancy, etc.

Now, the last thing (I swear), have you thought about new spheres? Or even replacements for those already there. I understand it must be difficult to code new spells into the game (with animations and all), but I really wanted to know your opinion on this matter.

The spell spheres and classes haven't really been worked on. The ones refined where Necromancy, Nature and Chaos. We are definitely opened for suggestions.
A few corrections though:
1) TPC already has some "new" spells like Summon Animal.
2) Day/ Night spells are useful
3) Inserting new spells is easy - peasy

Yes, yes, sorry, let me be more clear: They are useful... as a one point investment, there is no need to have Day/Night spells at Level 9.   

About the new spells, as far as I remember, Summon Animal uses the same sound and effect as other summoning spells, doesn't it? What I meant was for new stuff, like, say, a torrent of water out of the caster hands, or temporary terraforming (would that be terramorfing then?).

I'll write the stuff I have on my board down and take another good luck to remove what I judge bad before posting.

Ah, and thanks for the quick answer!

As a first step, after more debate we decided to make spells cost 1 AP (was 2) and only require previous spells to be +1 higher in mastery (was 2x) in version 0.8.3.

A while ago I made a list of spell and magic suggestions for the unofficial patch. Some of it probably won't be relevant any more, but I think there's still a lot of useful balancing ideas so I'll share it here:

Alchemy

• Charm - +4 merchant skill, +2 per level DONE!
  
• Stone Golem - summons multiple stone golems at a higher level. Maybe +1 golem per 2 levels DONE!
  
• Bronze Golem - +1 golem per 3 levels DONE!
  
• Spellforge - Mana cost 60 DONE!
  

Arcane Magic

• Corruption - 40% base chance of joining your side instead of 30 DONE!
  
• Dispel - Mana cost 15/16 DONE!
  
• Empower - Mana cost 50 DONE!
  
• Destruction - Mana cost 80 DONE!
  

Chaos Magic

• Morph Spells (Combat, Speed, Health, Damage, Tower) - this one is difficult. Maybe all of the above morph spells should be put into a single spell called Morph? Or maybe their chances of being positive/negative could increase when more allies or enemies are in the caster's radius respectively? N/A
  
• Drain Mana - Mana cost 16 DONE!
  
• Morph Resources - Mana cost 20 DONE!
  
• Increase Casting - Mana cost 35 or +1 casting per level instead of per 2 levels < probably obsolete, ignore N/A
  
• Wildfire - Deals 70 base damage DONE!
  

Divination Magic

• Elemental Lore - gives an extra +5 resistance per level. Maybe since the Sage is a buff wizard, this should effect friendly units within the caster's radius. Same with Defence Lore DONE!
  
• Defence Lore - gives an extra +5 armour per level DONE!
  
• See Invisible - base duration 5 mins instead of 2 DONE!
  
• Comprehension - Researches discounted by an extra +3% per level DONE!
  
• Call Sage - +1 of the selected mage per 3 levels DONE!
  
• Mind Leech - either 2 min base duration or Mana cost 40 DONE!
  
• Psychic Blast - 8 secs base duration DONE!
  

Healing Magic

• Blessing - 3 mins base duration +1 min per level, base morale bonus +3 instead of +2 DONE!
  
• Invigorate - +4 base speed instead of +2 DONE!
  
• Purify - deal 70 magic damage + 30 per level DONE!
  

Ice Magic

• Hand of Ice - 30 base damage DONE!
  
• Storm - 5 Mana cost or delete this spell, shuffle Ice Armour down here and put in a new spell N/A
  
• Ice Armour - mana cost 8, base +20 cold resistance, +10 cold resistance per level, 1 min 45 secs duration. If possible maybe change sprite set to the Frozen one. Either that or maybe make Ice Armour an AOE buff which gives only armour or put in a new Resist Cold spell DONE!
  
• Calm - Mana cost 4 if we're keeping it. Otherwise, delete this spell, move Wall of Ice down here and put in a new spell - something like Summon Water Elemental which Ice Magic desperately needs DONE!
  
• Ring of Ice - Mana cost 20, 50 base damage, + 30 per level DONE!
  
• Freeze - Mana cost 14 DONE!
  
• Wall of Ice - Mana cost 5 (see Calm above) DONE!
  
• Ice Floe - 1 min 30 secs base duration. Cold damage type should override any held weapon damage type DONE!
  
• Freeze Magic - new ability of the spell: instead of stopping mana regen, the spell stops any further spells from being cast by anyone for the duration of this spell?
  
• Ice Storm - Mana cost 60, 150 base damage (possibly +90 damage per level) < obsolete, probably too much damage. Can't have crazy spells unless hero resurrection is possible N/A
  

Illusion Magic

• Shadowform - 2 min base duration DONE!
  
• Spectral Horde - get full stats but always miss. Also are effected by any relevant xp buffs to make sure they appear as genuine as possible. Same with Dragonfear. I believe Espee/Faestus has the code for this DONE!
  
• Dragonfear - get full stats but always miss/hidden 1 damage so the enemy thinks you have a dragon in the same way the enemy would think you're sending a large force of soldiers your way with the Spectral Horde spell DONE!
  
• Invisibility - tricky. Normally I'd think the mana cost should be 18, but with the Fey Assassin running around I don't know whether this would be a good idea or not DONE!
  
• Mutate - base levels effected 1-3 instead of 1-2 (because of Training research) DONE!
  
• Transform - 65 mana cost DONE!
  

Nature Magic

• Summon Sprite - +1 Sprite per level (compare with Summon Imp), 11 mana cost DONE!
  
• Gemberry - Mana cost 7 DONE!
  
• Shillelagh - +10 base combat instead of +5 DONE!
  
• Summon Unicorn - +1 Unicorn per 2 levels, mana cost 25 DONE!
  
• Wall of Thorns - Mana cost 5 DONE!
  
• Call Lightning - Mana cost 30, 80 base electric damage, +40 per level DONE!
  
• Summon Treant - +1 Treant per 3 levels DONE!
  
• Change Weather - Mana cost 15 N/A
  
• Elementalism - Mana cost 47, +1 elemental per 3 levels DONE!
  

Necromancy

• Darkstorm - 13 Mana cost N/A
  
• Strip Flesh - base levels effected 1-3 (Training again ) DONE!
  

Poison Magic

• Immunity - make into a group enchantment and increase the mana cost. Either that or delete this spell since Antidote exists in the same spell set DONE!
  
• Summon Wasp - Mana cost 8 DONE!
  
• Antidote - Mana cost 8 DONE!
  
• Venom Touch - 3 min base duration or mana cost 10 DONE!
  
• Poison Gate - 2 min base duration DONE!
  
• Spray Poison - Mana cost 16, +12 damage per level DONE!
  
• Guardian Naga - +1 Naga per 3 levels. Maybe change it to a general that can actually inflict poison like a Blackguard DONE!
  
• Rot - Mana cost 40, base levels effected 1-3 < maybe a new spell sphere could be made based on disease since a Plaguelord for example has little use for the Poison in this spell set DONE!
  
• Call of Kargoth - +1 Spider per level, +1 Spider Queen per 2 levels DONE!
  

Pyromancy

• Hand of Flame - 30 base damage DONE!
  
• Ring of Fire - Mana cost 22, + 30 damage per level DONE!
  
• Firebreath - 1 min 30 secs base duration DONE!
  
• Armageddon - Mana cost 65, 150 base damage (possibly +90 damage per level) < see Ice Storm N/A
  

Rune Magic

• Stoneskin - +10 armour per level, base duration 1 min 30 secs < actually if minor enchantment spells like this are going to be caster only, base duration should be more like 5 minutes DONE!
  
• Gem of Wisdom - Mana cost 3 or initial spellcasting bonus 40% instead of 20% and possibly mana cost 5 < I just plain don't like this spell. It's a waste of a spell slot and decreases the variety of this spell sphere
  
• Dig - possibly 3 min base duration DONE!
  
• Resist Magic - Mana cost 8, Magic Resistance +30, +30 per level < delete or change it to resist all magic, including elemental and maybe even make that an AOE buff effect. As it is, this spell is a joke and I think even if the mana cost was lowered to 8 and the effect increased, it would still be a joke DONE!
  
• Doomstones - 55 base damage DONE!
  
• Summon Guardian - Mana cost 20? (to empower the Rune Magic Summon Guardian spell over the Alchemy one since Rune Magic is all about buildings and the earth). Probably also shift it down the spell book so access is gained much earlier  DONE!
  
• Resist Missile - Mana cost 25, base duration 1 min 30 secs. Maybe it should resist all missiles instead though, not just arrows DONE!
  
• Rune Item - Mana cost 23 < not much of a fan. Anyone with sense would just get a character with this spell and pass all the items on to other characters which didn't have to learn Rune Magic for this spell.  DONE!
  
• Stonecall - Mana cost 40 DONE!
  

Time Magic < I hope this can be added at some point, along with many of the other uPatch skills

• Vigor - Base speed increase +6, base duration 1 min DONE!
  
• Age - Mana cost 12, speed decrease per level 2 instead of 1, base duration 1 min DONE!
  
• Life - 1 min base duration DONE!
  
• Foresight - Base combat increase 4 instead of 2, base duration 1 min DONE!
  
• Springtime - Change base damage to +5 and +5 per level, 1 min base duration DONE!
  
• Decrepify - mana cost 18, change both damage and damage per level to -5 DONE!
  
• Wisdom of Age - 25% base unit production time decrease instead of 10%, 1 min 30 secs base duration +1 min per level DONE!
  
• Whispers of Time - 40 mana cost, +20XP per level DONE!
  
• Overwork - 1 min base duration, +1 min per level DONE!
  

On another note, I'd also love to see the amount of time each global or caster based enchantment has left (like Telepathy and Stoneskin). Is it possible to display the enchantments as icons with bars next to them under the resources panel?

If there's going to be any new magic spheres, I'd like to see something like Storm Magic. So far there's spell spheres for fire and ice, it makes sense that electrical gets its own spell sphere. I think stuff like Call Lightning, Invigorate, Summon Air Elemental and Storm could be in it . Maybe a new martial spell sphere could be made to spice up some of the melee classes too (like the Monk).

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I'd also like some of the magic researches to be available for some of the races which currently have none, like the Dwarves, Knights, Orcs etc.

Joe the Bartender wrote:

On another note, I'd also love to see the amount of time each global or caster based enchantment has left (like Telepathy and Stoneskin). Is it possible to display the enchantments as icons with bars next to them under the resources panel?

Not a bad idea, but the display would only show either:
a) spells affecting the race globally (merchant, morale, construction buffs)
b) spells at a) plus spells affecting the hero (if alive) - this might be confusing since some spells are casted on the hero and surrounding units, while others are only casted on units (but can be casted on hero as well)

This suggestion would fill up the right part of the screen with quite some info though.

b sounds good to me. If it's capable of telling me how much time spells like Telepathy and Ice Floe has left, it should hopefully work well .

I guess you don't have so much interest in the other stuff though?

I do, it's just that the above implementation needed discussion while the others are straight forward.

Here's what I have so far. It still needs work, but I think I've got the general idea, yes?

That looks great . It's definitely going to be a big improvement.

Can we get rid of the Increase Casting spell for Chaos Magic? I really don't like the idea of spells teaching you new spells. Especially on a the Chaos Sphere.

I would prefer something like Chaos Aura. Basically, it would work just like the Illusion spell "Awe" but instead it inflicts Chaos.

I agree, I find it weird that a chaos mage would spend time researching other spells even though they're researched at random.
I'd like to see some of the affliction spells like Chaos Aura become a caster enchantment with an aoe equal to the caster's command radius (at an increase in mana cost).

Talking about afflictions, I think it would be interesting if units could have more than one debuff at the same time (for example a unit is Diseased and has Fear). Lastly could affliction icons be displayed on the hero's portrait and any docked unit's portrait? I find it strange that something this simple wasn't done in the original game .

For some reason my Change Weather spell doesn't seem to be able to cancel rain. I've tried going to night and fine, day and fine and even the rainy ones and back and it doesn't seem to stop raining. I'm wondering if this might be a side effect of Darkstorm? On the map I was playing, the weather started off with Daytime + Rain weather if that has anything to do with it.

Just to make sure I understand, Joe: Ice Armor should have a FIXED duration? As in, no addition per level of spell mastery? The same goes with other spells mentioned in the list.

I meant base duration for those sorry .

Joe the Bartender wrote:

Lastly could affliction icons be displayed on the hero's portrait and any docked unit's portrait? I find it strange that something this simple wasn't done in the original game .

- implemented in 0.8.5.

This might be a bug surviving Patrick's doomsday, but since this is the right place to discuss spells (as Joe said once):
Earthpower can be used on Buildings under construction (doing nothing, as far as I see). It can be annoying if you have lots of buildings under fire and under costruction, making the spell not as strategic as it should be (because you waste potential repairs on buildings that don't need/deserve it).

Zetoo wrote:

This might be a bug surviving Patrick's doomsday, but since this is the right place to discuss spells (as Joe said once):
Earthpower can be used on Buildings under construction (doing nothing, as far as I see). It can be annoying if you have lots of buildings under fire and under costruction, making the spell not as strategic as it should be (because you waste potential repairs on buildings that don't need/deserve it).

Fixed in 0.8.5. Nothing escapes the devourers' doomsday!

Kharn wrote:

Can we get rid of the Increase Casting spell for Chaos Magic? I really don't like the idea of spells teaching you new spells. Especially on a the Chaos Sphere.

I would prefer something like Chaos Aura. Basically, it would work just like the Illusion spell "Awe" but instead it inflicts Chaos.

Implemented in 0.8.5.

Seems to me that all that remains in discussion is:

1)Freeze Magic - should the enemy player still lose mana and get a "haha magic is frozen" message, or should it keep its mana upon failing to cast it.

2)Gem of Wisdom - this must be replaced with a new spell, but what?

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:

Seems to me that all that remains in discussion is:

1)Freeze Magic - should the enemy player still lose mana and get a "haha magic is frozen" message, or should it keep its mana upon failing to cast it.

2)Gem of Wisdom - this must be replaced with a new spell, but what?

1) I don't mind punishing people for that sort of thing, but I wouldn't want the AI constantly draining it's mana if it couldn't recognize that Freeze Magic was active.

2) Perhaps make it so it lasts for more than one spell, so it could be an alternative to Concentrate. Though it could have a higher bonus than Concentration, with a lesser duration. (Or vice versa, if you feel that more appropriate).

Patrick_the_Winekiller wrote:

2)Gem of Wisdom - this must be replaced with a new spell, but what?

How about one that removes all terrain features within the caster's command radius? The purpose is to clear the area and make it easier to place buildings. Deleted features could be made to spawn the building destroyed effects, so they don't just vanish.
However, one should note that this spell could break some scripted maps where certain areas of the map are blocked off by features. Maybe some features could be set (through the editor) to not be affected by the spell?

Kharn wrote:

How about one that removes all terrain features within the caster's command radius?

It also makes sense if you can remove features within skirmishes and special maps (campaign, chapters, etc.): imagine you have an enemy position/base blocked by features. You can remove it when felling ready to attack. The con is that some special maps (like labyrinths and flooded caverns with paths blocked with rocks mostly) lose their unique characteristics and their goal/s might be destroyed. However, if AI learns how to do it “intelligently”, and/or some features are not affected by this spell (as Kharn suggested), I think it could work. I would make it as a "remove forest" spell, but not sure if that fits Runes...

Another idea would be a spell that specifically deals a lot of damage to buildings, but not to units. Rune magic seems to have a decent focus on buildings after all.

DeNarr wrote:

Another idea would be a spell that specifically deals a lot of damage to buildings, but not to units.

yes, like "destruction" spell for all sorts of buildings only. Stuff like "Earth Break" or something.

Also this thread could help in discussion https://the-protectors.forumotion.com/t173-new-units-and-spells

Zeto wrote:

8 Endure (All friendly buildings in command radious gain a small amount of HP) STEZ54